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richardstevenhack's avatar

"objectively speaking, Israel has a right to self-defense"

You blew your entire argument right there.

You make the same mistake in comparing Russia in Ukraine and Israel against Hamas.

Israel is NOT a legitimate country. It is a colonial occupation and is recognized as such in international law and by the bulk of the human race. It came into existence through racist terrorism and foreign meddling in the affairs of Palestine.

Sorry, You lose this argument - objectively.

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Christopher's avatar

First, thanks for commenting.

Second, I realize that Israel in the 21st century is an artificial construct. It's an idea, not so much a place. And a colonialist project, with some similarities to the USA that was formed on the genocide of indigenous peoples.

That being said, the right to self-defense is more of a human right than one of a country. The whole concept of international law is pretty much flawed because there is no such thing as an impartial judge or jury. Every attempt at a global institution is corrupted or bought off, or subject to weak enforcement powers. The legal concept of personal jurisdiction doesn't work either across international borders.

Although the US gives it a pretty good try, with their illegal long-arm jurisdictional tricks.

All I am saying is that any individual living in a place has the right to self-defense, and the right to insist on a government that eliminates outsiders who try to kill "us."

I do not condone nor enjoy watching Bibi commit massacres and ignore the norms of civilized countries, including Russia, that do not resort to such measures.

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richardstevenhack's avatar

"Human rights" - which as an aside I don't believe in - apply to humans, not states. So I have a right to self-defense - a state does not. As an anarchist, I also object to the notion of a right to insist on a government that attacks other people.

That said, Russia obviously has an "interest" in preventing NATO from using Ukraine to attack it. Israel may have a similar "interest". But so does Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, Yemen and Iran. So does every nation on the planet.

So what?

Declaring that Israel has an interest makes no judgement as to which interest is "correct" in the sense of which interest reduces the amount of conflict in the world.

Which makes it all an irrelevant tautology.

In the real world, the US is an aggressor state. So is Israel. They actively pursue using force to get what they want without regard to the impact on the world. Russia, Hezbollah, Hamas, and the rest do not. They have consistently acted defensively. Any "aggression" by Hamas on October 7 was a legitimate defense against an attacking occupying state. Hamas are actual individuals engaging in defense against a state. Therefore, any "human rights" involved apply to them much more than the Israelis.

In addition, as I've said elsewhere, any Israeli citizen who did not buy his property in a legitimate real estate transaction from a Palestinian, or from someone who did, is an occupier and thus a legitimate target. As the Israelis like to say about the Palestinians, "there are no civilians."

As I said, I don't believe in "human rights" or for that matter morals or ethics. I judge events based on whether they are a threat to me. The US government and its allies and their behavior are a threat to me because they are provoking nuclear powers capable of destroying where I live.

So I couldn't care less about Israel's "right of self-defense". They have none and they're about to find that out, in terms of the common phrase "fuck around and find out."

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